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Topic: Gary Renard and Bill Gladstone
Teaching: Awakenings -Gary Renard and Bill Gladstone
Host: Larry Seyer
Class: http://www.acimgather.org
Copyright: © A Course in Miracles
Workbook Topics Discussed:

No workbook lesson was discussed today.

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Larry Seyer:.  Good morning everyone, welcome to Awakenings for Tuesday September the 29th. Yesterday I received an email from a friend with a video link posted in it, and it said, you might enjoy this. It was a video of an interview between Bill Gladstone and Gary Renard. And in this video Gary and Bill discuss the significance of the year 2012, and as many of you know I do work with David Wilcok and he deals with the 2012 phenomena quite a bit in his research, and his contention has always been that there's not going to be some disaster that happens at 2012 and the world is not going to end. His contention is basically we're going through an ascension type process.

So when I found this video I watched it last night and I felt it was so perfect what Gary had said that there was really nothing that I could add to it in my teaching this morning. So I asked Dove if it would be alright to play that this morning, and as it turned out last night the power went out here at the house and I lost my internet connection. So I called Dove this morning and said, okay Dove I really would like to do this but I don't have an internet connection. He said, that's no problem. And as coincidence would have it, if you believe in coincidence, he had found the video also and they'd already started playing it in the room. So all is perfect, everything works out like it's supposed to.

So for today's teaching I would like to play that video, the audio from the video, for the podcast. And last night I went ahead and cleaned up the audio a little bit. There's a lot of wind noise and other noises in the background, but I was able to clean it up using my equipment here at the studio to where it sounds quite a bit better than the video originally did. So I'm gonna share that with everyone today and wish you all a wonderful now as I will sign off now and then let the audio from the video play in its entirety.

William Gladstone:.  Good afternoon this is William Gladstone for PlanetChange.tv, author of The Twelve, and I have the pleasure today of chatting with Gary Renard, the author of The Disappearance of the Universe and Your Immortal Reality. My first question today is, what does 2012 mean to you?

Gary Renard:.  Well my teachers in my books The Disappearance of the Universe and Your Immortal Reality, they see 2012 as the beginning of the new cycle. You know there's a lot of fear involved around 2012, a lot of people think it's gonna be the end of the world and the electrical grid will fry and computers will melt down and angry roving bands of armed Americans will take to the streets to steal each other's Christmas presents and things like that. And I don't think that's gonna happen, I think that what's gonna happen is in general it's gonna be a good thing. And you notice especially in the second, in my third book that's coming out, my teachers describe it as a shift where a lot of good things are gonna happen. For example they see the United States as cooperating a lot more with other countries around the world to solve global problems such as global warming and things like that, things that need a lot of cooperation in order to solve. And in general fewer wars but that doesn't mean that there won't be wars.

And in fact there have always been good and bad things happening at the same time no matter where you look in history. That's duality. And it's very possible that things could happen that would just scare the crap out of people. For example you could have a regional nuclear war. There are several places in the world where that could happen. You have North Korea, South Korea, Japan, that area. You have Iran, Israel, that area. You have India, Pakistan, that area. We've never seen a regional nuclear war before but that could very well happen. You could wake up in the morning and millions of people could be dead and people will think it's the end of the world but it's not the end of the world. It's just the world doing what the world does which, disasters get bigger as history goes on and things happen to scare the people.

The ego, which I'll describe as the thought of separation from our source, all the ego needs is for people to think that they're bodies and if they're afraid then what can be afraid, except the body? So there'll always be things to scare people yet in general things will be getting better, but people don't notice. It's like people live longer today than they ever did. They're safer today than they have ever been in history. But you would never know that to talk to people or to watch the news or anything like that, and it really doesn't matter what the reality is all that matters is how people perceive it, and as long as they perceive it fearfully then they'll have a fearful experience. But if they perceive it in the way that the holy spirit would have them perceive it then they will have a good experience and a loving experience.

And in general I think what'll happen in the next century is a lot of good things on balance. My teachers Art and Persis say that within 50 years or so the Dow Jones Industrial Average will trade at the 100,000 level, and right now it's about 9,000. And yet percentage-wise that's not that big a difference than what happened when the Dow was just 1,000 in 1972 and in about 25 years it hit 10,000, it's the same percentage type of gain, because the world is actually set up to undergo the biggest economic expansion in human history. You've had all these barriers come down with the fall of the Soviet Union, other nations around the world rising into prominence. As things go on they're going to want to make money from one another even more so, and so things are set up to actually go very well but people always wire things up to be the end of the world or terrible things are gonna happen. And yeah terrible things always happen, yet on balance it's gonna be a good thing.

William Gladstone:.  Is there anything an individual can do to make sure that their experience of 2012 will be more positive than negative?

Gary Renard:.  Yeah actually it has to be an individual thing, and there's a certain kind of forgiveness that is taught in A Course In Miracles which is really the source material for my books as well as my teachers Art and Persis. A Course in Miracles was given by Jesus of course and it's kind of like a modern-day new age spirituality but at the same time it's kind of like what Jesus was teaching all along 2,000 years ago. And what we can do as individuals is practice a certain kind of forgiveness no matter what happens, no matter what appears to happen in the world there's a way of looking at it where you can find peace instead of conflict and instead of fear.

Now the reason that that's so important is because what we're seeing in the world is actually an outer picture of an inward condition, that's the way the course puts it. And so if you could achieve inner peace then peace on the outside would follow. And if you had enough people in the world achieving inner peace then peace on the outside would literally have to follow. At one point in The Disappearance of the Universe my teacher Persis said that the people of the world will never live in peace until the people of the world have inner peace. And that's because whatever is on the inside literally has to show up on the outside because what we're seeing is a projection. It has no reality by itself. What it really is is a projection that's coming from us.

An analogy I like to use is let's say you go into a movie theatre and the lights go down and the movie comes on and you forget that it's not real, you get involved and you get into the story. I love to go to the movies, might even become emotional I might say, hey no don't go there, you know I'll get into the story. And I forget that there's not really anything happening on the screen.

Now let's say that I wanted to change what was on the screen in a permanent and meaningful way. Well it's not gonna do me too much good to go up and fool around with the screen because there's not really anything happening on the screen. But our attention, whether it's in a movie theatre or in the world or in the universe of time and space, our attention has been diverted to the screen. That's the effect. What A Course in Miracles says is this is a course in cause and not effect. It also says, seek not to change the world, seek rather to change your mind about the world. And if I was in a movie theatre and I wanted to change what was on the screen, well what I would have to do is I'd have to remember something. There's a projector, and the projector is hidden and I'm not supposed to think about that. But if I really wanted to change what was on the screen I would have to find that projector and I would have to change what's in the projector. You know then I would be dealing with the cause instead of the effect. Now I would be dealing with something that could have a permanent impact on what's on that screen instead of messing around with the effect, which at best is gonna give you a very temporary and meaningless impact.

So what the kind of spirituality that my books and my teachers and A Course in Miracles are into has to do with the effect being kind of meaningless and the cause being the important thing. Now that doesn't mean you have to give up the effect. A lot of people when they learn things like oh the world is an illusion and Course in Miracles further refines that into the idea that this is a dream that we will awaken from, and awakening is actually enlightenment. When Buddha said, I am awake, he meant that he realized that he was not one of these figures in the dream, that he was actually the maker of the entire dream. That the universe of time and space was actually a projection that was coming from him. Now grant you the projector is hidden. You don't see it, you actually feel like you're in the effect. But the projector is hidden in your own unconscious mind, and then your viewingness with the conscious mind. And so it's like the mind is split and the unconscious is oblivious to you because it's been denied and it's unconscious. If you were aware of it then it wouldn't be unconscious. But you're not aware of it and so you don't understand because you forgot that you made up the whole thing yourself. And if you forget then you're at the effect of it. If you can remember then you can be a cause and it makes for a totally different experience. So the kind of forgiveness, which I've already mentioned, would be coming from a place of cause and not effect.

Forgiveness the way that the world traditionally understands it is all about the effect and it's like, oh you really did it to me and I'm the victim and it's your fault and I'm forgiving you because I'm better than you and you know plus I have Jesus and you don't. So you're forgiven. You're still going to hell, but your forgiven.

William Gladstone:.  Haha.

Gary Renard:.  And that's the kind of forgiveness that comes from being at the effect of things because it makes everything real. The kind of forgiveness that is taught in my books would say, well wait a minute I'm gonna forgive you not because you've really done something. I'm gonna forgive you because you haven't really done anything because I'm the one who made you up in the first place. You know you're in my holy ground, you're in my holodeck or whatever you want to call it on Star Trek, but it's like something that has no inherent reality because it's a projection that's coming from you.

You know the American Indians used to say, behold the great mystery. Well A Course in Miracles says, behold the great projection. Because that's what it actually is. And you know people will assume that god made the world and it's hard to argue with them sometimes when you're in such a beautiful place as this, in Malibu, and everything looks so stunning and wonderful. The only problem is that for all the beauty that there is there's a corresponding ugliness. That's duality. You have good and bad, you have beautiful and ugly, you have life and death. It's all a function of opposites which can only exist when  you have some kind of a split from your source.

Now if god actually made the world then you would be a victim of god. You know you would be a victim of a force that is outside of you that did it to you. But what if god is still this perfect oneness that has absolutely nothing to do with the world. What if god really is perfect love, just like the bible says and just like A Course in Miracles says? Well if perfect love were really perfect love then all we would know how to do would be to love. If  you knew how to do anything else it wouldn't be perfect love, it would be something else.

And the god that we get in A Course in Miracles anyway and in my books really is perfect love, which gives us a perfect home to go home to. So the way that this is set up, it's similar to Buddhism in the sense that you have two things. You have this love, then you have this other thing which we'll call the ego, and the ego is the thought that somehow you could be separate from your source which is still perfect love, that somehow you could be separate from this and still have a personal identity and an individual existence that is somehow separate from your source. But according to A Course in Miracles, no you can't be separate from your source, which means that your reality is exactly the same as god.

Now it may sound kind of arrogant to people to say, oh I'm the same as god. But according to the teachings that I believe, what is really arrogant would be to think that you could be separate from god, that you could take on this individual existence that is the ego that is somehow different than your source. What great spiritual teachings like A Course in Miracles and Buddhism do is they undo. The goal is to undo this thing called the ego, and the reason that that's such a brilliant approach is because if you completely undid the faltue, if you completely undid the ego, then eventually the real you would be all that's left. And that real you is still the same as god, it's still the same as your source, which is why great masters like Buddha and Jesus at the end of their final incarnations what they were experiencing was their perfect oneness with god, absolutely no different, and their experience became the same as being one with god, which is your source which is what A Course in Miracles would also refer to as spirit.

Most people think of spirit as king of a separation idea because you have a soul and you die and there's this thing that goes on after you and that thing that goes on after you looks suspiciously like the body that you just left, well that's still a separation idea because it gives you an individual existence and you're separate from other beings. The kind of spirit that A Course in Miracles is talking about is something that would be nothing less than god. Nothing less than all of it. You know it wouldn't be just part of it, it would be something that is nothing less than all of it and the goal is to get to the experience of that, which anybody can do. You can have the experience of that even while you appear to be here in a body and at the same time there's nothing wrong with enjoying bodies.

You know people when they first hear about this they think, oh they gotta give up something. They always wire it up that way. Oh you know, if the world's an illusion and it's just a dream it means I gotta give up my money and sex and art and music and all the beautiful things I love. Well first of all I hate to tell them but you know 40, 50 years from now they're gonna have to do that anyway so the body isn't gonna last forever. So why not use that 40 or 50 years or whatever to build something that will last forever. And the irony is at the same time you can still have all that other stuff too. In fact you can even get better at having that other stuff if that's what you want. You can learn ways that will actually make it show up for you in the hologram.

You know the big thing in the last few years in spirituality has been manifesting abundant, it's just like love attraction or the spirit. I want to attract things to me, there's something out there and I'm gonna attract it to me and then I'm gonna get it. I think that the wave of the future is gonna be just the opposite. People are gonna learn to understand that it is all a projection that is coming from them, so you don't have to attract anything all you have to do is project it into your hologram. You can actually make things show up. You know masters like Yoga Landa could actually make objects show up and disappear and that's because he understood that it was all coming from him. He didn't have to go looking for something that was outside of him and kind of attracted to him, which may work sometimes but it's still like dealing with the effect so it didn't work all the time. But if you could learn how to deal with cause then you could actually project physical objects into your universe, you could make things happen, you could get what you want because none of it has any inherent reality anyway. So well there's no difference between making one thing show up or making another thing show up.

So it's really a different approach. It's kind of like the Course in Miracles says, the thinking of the world must be reversed. You have to learn to come from that place of cause and not effect. And you know yeah you can make things show up but that's not the focus, that's not the primary focus, because the focus is on the cause And what that leads to is a different experience. If you did the kind of experience where you said okay you're in my hologram I projected you you haven't really done anything, so I'm gonna forgive you because you haven't really done anything. You know I'm gonna forgive you because I'm the one that decided on some level to have you be there so you could be like a pain in the ass to me, then I'll forgive you because you haven't done anything, but you can't stop there you have to kinda like go all the way with this. You have to replace that ego thought system with the thought system of the holy spirit. Jesus went all the way with this. He would think of people, and it's not that he didn't see people's bodies, he had normal relationships. He was married to Mary Magdalene. You know it's like he had friends, he liked to laugh, he liked to tell jokes, he went to parties, he drank wine. You know they used to have weddings in those days that would last for 2 weeks. It's like, that's my kind of party.

And it's like, it's okay to have a good time. And at the same time he knew what people really were. Yes people think that they're these guilty bodies but the truth is Jesus knew that they really were and that their reality was nothing less than god. He also knew how he thought about them would determine his own experience of himself. There are two good reasons for that. The first one is simply that your unconscious mind knows everything. You know there's not one piece of information in the universe of time and space that your unconscious mind is not aware of. It actually knows everything. And on top of that one of the things that it knows, and this is something that Buddha taught and Jesus was certainly aware of it because he understood Buddha. One of the things that your unconscious mind knows is that there's really just one of us. There's really just one ego appearing as many. And it's what the Hindus would call the world of multiplicity. You know you look out there and you see 6 million people, but there's really just one of us. No matter how many times you try to divide it and subdivide it because it's all based on the idea of separation.

The truth is there's really just one of us. There's just one ego appearing as many, and you're it. You know it's not somebody else, there isn't really anybody else. Now a smart guy like Jesus would put two and two together and say wait a minute here, if there's only one of us and if I'm it and if my unconscious mind knows that, what am I doing if I go through life judging and condemning other people or just seeing them being as separate? Well the truth is if I think that way about other people there's nobody out there for that thought to go to, so it's really just going into my unconscious mind and my unconscious mind will interpret it as a message from me to me about me. And that's why he says in the Course in Miracles a very important law of the mind which is, as you see him you will see yourself. You know and it must be pretty important because he says, never forget this. You know he says, in that person you'll either find yourself or lose yourself.

Once you start to understand that then I would think you want to get pretty damn careful about the way you think about other people because there's not really anybody out there for it to go to. It's just going to you. So if I'm driving on the freeway here in L.A. and somebody cuts me off in traffic and I go, ah that son of a bitch, well I just called myself a son of a bitch without realizing it. It looked like it was going out to that person but there's nobody out there for it to go to. It's really just going to me and it will determine how I feel about myself. And eventually even what I think I am. Because if that person is guilty my unconscious mind will interpret it to mean that I'm guilty. If that person is a separate body my unconscious mind will interpret it to mean that I'm a body. Which means that everything that I ever did, every unkind act or unkind word that I ever said to anybody when I was a kid or a teenager or in my 20s, it's like anything that I ever did really happened. If I'm really a body then all that really happened and I'm really guilty and it makes the whole ego thought system real.

But it's possible to reverse that. It's possible simply by changing the way that you think to completely change the way that you feel about yourself. This is especially important for people that are suffering from depression. I know about that because I'd say from the time I was about 14 to the time I was about 28 I was really depressed. I mean clinically depressed but my parents couldn't do anything about it cause we didn't have any money, any medical insurance or anything like that. Then eventually when I was 28 I did this beautiful thing from California that was called the EST training. And what that did was it gave me a thought system that I could grab a hold of that was consistent and it gave me a way of looking at everything in the world and knowing how to interpret it. The reason that's so important is because without a thought system, without some kind of training like Buddhism or the workbook of A Course in Miracles, the mind will not think consistently. It will be erratic. Sometimes it will think right-minded thoughts but eventually you're always going to slip back into your old way of thinking and kind of like fall back into it. But if you have a good thought system, which is what EST gave to me, then it gives you the right way of looking at things and if you're consistent with it, and I was for oh about 9 years or so, that snapped me out of my depression within a year or two.

The reason being is people are having all the bad thoughts they're having because they're depressed. They don't realize it's the other way around. The truth is that people become depressed because they've been having all these bad thoughts. It's actually the thoughts that come first. And the experience follows. People could have their mind trained to think along a certain line, they could gain completely control over how they feel about themselves. They could rid themselves of depression, and then on top of that if they go all the way with this like Jesus did, thought of everybody as being nothing less than God, then eventually that is how they would come to experience themselves. So through that kind of forgiveness the ego, which is the thought of separation, is undone and then on top of that you get to shift from the experience of being this separate ego back to the experience of what you really always were in the first place which is still safe at home in god.

William Gladstone:.  Well many people are bombarded with news of horrific events that occur all over the world, including what is right now the major issue I think for the United States in Afghanistan and reports come in with all our communications of really horrible things. I just read in the newspaper the other day there was a group of young Muslim girls that didn't have the right scarves on, and even though their school was burning they weren't allowed to leave because it would have been a taboo for them to be seen. When something like that happens, yes there's a level in which it's an illusion but there's also a level where as a human being it hurts to see this and it hurts even more if you feel, wow I'm co-responsible for that, that's my own projection. Can you talk a little bit about how to deal with these things that really are happening not in our own little world but in the large world but because of mass communications today they're in our face.

Gary Renard:.  Sure. Well whether it's your own little world or that big world you see out there on your TV screen it's still the same projection, it's all a part of the same projection. What it is is a trick. It's a trick of the ego because this ego likes the idea of separation. And the ego's number 1 game plan is to make you believe that you're a body. Now what you're seeing out there isn't really happening so you might say, oh gee I projected those terrible things. Well the truth is what you projected is nothing. It's not good or bad, no more so than on a movie screen in a theatre. But the ego is very good at doing its job and it's an interesting definition of a temptation in A Course in Miracles. It's a little bit different than the way that the world traditionally thinks about it. The course says that temptation has one lesson it would teach in all its forms, wherever it occurs, it would persuade the holy son of god he is a body, born in what must die, unable to escape its frailty, and bound by what it orders him to feel.

You know so now the body is telling us what to feel and the ego has won because the body is real and the best way to tempt you to believe that you're a body is to think that the poor victims that you're seeing out there in the world are bodies. Now there's a way to look at it differently and still be helpful in the world. You could think of those people as being what they really are. You know rather than victims who are helpless bodies who are having all these terrible things happen they're your projection and what they really are in reality is this perfect spirit which is nothing less than god. It's a consistent thought system that applies to every relationship you have, every situation you find yourself in, every event that you see on your TV screen. It's always the same way of looking at things. What they really are is nothing less than god. And by believing that what you believe you are is nothing less than god, and as the ego is undone you have more of the holy spirit occupying your mind as you go along.

Now if you have a spirit occupying your mind instead of the ego then what happens is you'll feel inspired. In fact the word inspired comes from the phrase in spirit. And as you become more in spirit you'll be able to think more clearly. Then when a situation does come up like these terrible things that you've described or terrible natural disasters like the tsunami, when things like that come up you will actually be able to think more clearly than most people and you may be able to come up with a better way to help those people and maybe eventually even a way to stop those kinds of things from happening if you're thinking in spirit instead of the ego. And you might end up winning the Nobel Peace Prize or something because you're thinking more clearly and you're actually helping people, and you're helping people not necessarily because they're real people, you're helping people because that is your way of extending love into the world.

You know as the ego is undone and the spirit takes over you actually become love. And everything you do in your life can be an extension of love. The purpose of it can be love. And it's like my teacher said to me, look you know you don't have to go looking for love if that's where you're coming from. It's like everything you do can be an extension of love, and when you do that that's all that matters because it's the love. It doesn't matter if you're extending it into an illusion or into a dream, the point is you're extending it and it's the love that's real and you can connect with the universal love that is in everyone and the only difference between that and the way that other people think about love is that this love is universal, it does apply to everybody. You cannot withhold your love and your forgiveness from anybody or else it won't be real for you because it really is true that as you see him you will see yourself. And that's why Jesus says, always remember this. There can be no exceptions to it or else it won't be real, it'll just be partial and if it's not partial then it's just temporary.

William Gladstone:.  It reminds me a little bit, I don't know if you're familiar with the Calderon de La Barka, famous 15th century Spanish dramatist, who wrote life is a dream. And the Spanish is prettier than the English, but the basic final theme very close to what you're describing, the important element is to do good works because if life is a dream you may wake up and that case it's important that you've done good works. And if life in fact is not a dream well then of course it's important to do good works. And I think it's a very similar message and it's interesting because it's coming from what was and is in some ways still a very I guess from the Course in Miracles point of view distorted projection of the teachings of Jesus. But at least they've got that part, at least Calderon de La Barka, got that part pretty accurate.

Gary Renard:.  I think that's a brilliant observation and the course would say very much the same thing about forgiveness. It's like as you do this kind of forgiveness it's really going to you. At one point the course talks about the experience of death. You know you die and of course the body may appear to stop and die but you keep right on going, the mind keeps right on going. And the course says about all these acts of forgiveness, if you've been doing forgiveness and doing all this love, the course says that even when you die it'll be a different experience, it'll be a much better experience of the higher realm. And it says that when you die then it is not hard to see that the gifts we gave were saved for us. You know so it's kind of like everything is different when you do this. It's a better quality of life while you appear to be here. You're actually awakening in god and actually you never left but it's kinda like when you're having a dream in bed at night the dream becomes your reality and it looks like it's real.

Now I'm not here to say that the dream doesn't look like it's real and feel like it's real. It does feel real and it does look real but that doesn't mean that it's true. Events in a dream do appear to happen just as the events in our dreams in bed last night appeared to happen and could even appear completely real. But when you wake up where's the dream? Well the dream is gone because it was never really there in the first place. And the bed that you wake up in becomes your reality but you weren't aware of it when you were in the dream. It's only when you wake up that you can see that you were there all along and that it was simply out of your awareness that you could not see it.

In the gospel of Thomas 2,000 years ago the disciples went up to Jesus and we said, you know when will the kingdom come? And he said, well it will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, behold here or behold there. Rather the kingdom of the father is spread out upon the earth and people do not see it. Well it's not that it's not here, it's not that it's not all around us and everywhere just as god is everywhere, but it's out of our awareness. And when we wake up from this dream, you know it's kind of like macro dream, then what will happen is we'll be surprised to find out that just like we never left he bed while we were in our dreams last night, while we were in this dream we never left heaven. We actually were there all along it's just that we couldn't see it, just as Jesus said in the gospel of Thomas, people do not see it. Well you can't see it with the body's eyes. You can see symbols of it but you can't see the real thing with the body's eyes because the body as the course teaches actually represents a limit on awareness. And the kind of awareness that these teachings lead to is an expanded awareness of all of it, of total love.

Course in Miracles says you are at home in god dreaming of exile but perfectly capable of awakening to reality. And that is something that is going to happen for all of us without exception. I think the real question is, how long do we want to prolong our suffering? Because the kind of forgiveness that I'm describing and you know I really go into it in more detail in my workshops and the same with the books and the same with my CDs and things like that, that kind of forgiveness leads to less suffering. You know if you can really forgive something after 30 seconds instead of 30 days then that will be 30 days of your life that you did not spend suffering, you know that you spent at peace. And that's where Buddhism and A Course in Miracles have a common goal which is kinda like the end of suffering. And eventually you can get to the point where it's impossible for you to feel any pain. You know as A Course in Miracles says, the guiltless mind cannot suffer.

Well as you're practicing forgiveness the holy spirit is healing that unconscious part of the mind that you can't see. All you have to forgive is the corresponding images that are kind of like symbolic of that which is in your own unconscious mind. Doesn't matter that you can't see your unconscious mind, all you have to forgive is what's right in front of your face. And if you do that, which is the symbol of what's in your unconscious mind, then the holy spirit will take care of the part of the job that you can't see and the mind is being healed, guilt is being removed, and by the way this guilt isn't traditional guilt it's an ontological deep guilt that can be traced all the way back to the idea that we have separated ourselves from our source. And that's unconscious to us also but it is possible to forgive that by forgiving everything that comes up in front of your face.

If you do that it leads to peace, it leads to eventually awakening, and even while you appear to be here such as Jesus you would get to the point where it would actually be impossible for you to feel physical pain. One of the biggest myths in history is the idea that Jesus suffered for people when he was on the cross and died for their sins. That's exactly the opposite of what he was teaching. What he was teaching was that he could not suffer and that what he really was, which was not a body, could not be hurt and it could not be killed and it could not be touched by anything in this world. That what he really was was the same with god, perfect oneness with god, and this kind of spirit is something that is immortal. It's invulnerable. Something that can't be threatened by anything in this world which is why right in the introduction to A Course in Miracles it says, nothing real can be threatened. Well that's what this is talking about. That kind of spirit that really can't be heard.

Then it says, nothing unreal exists. Well that would be anything else. And it kind of like represents a choice that eventually needs to be made by people that will lead them back to an experience of their perfect oneness with god. Now I just want to add that the reason that experience is so important is because it's the only thing that will really make people happy. Words won't do it. Theology won't do it. My words won't do it. You know it's just theology. Even a description of the kind of reality I'm talking about, that perfect oneness with god, even a description of that won't do it because it's still just words. But what will make you happy is an experience of reality. An experience of what you really are and where you really are. And that will make you happy because it is full and it is whole and it is complete.

You know there's a section in the workbook of A Course in Miracles where Jesus is talking about all these difficult questions that people have. You know people ask some pretty heavy questions in my workshops, who am I, how did I get here. And I'll say, well you know according to A Course in Miracles you're not here. And they'll say, well yea yea I know but how'd I get here? And it's kinda like a circular thing you know. And they want to know, where am I going and all of this. And there's that place in the workbook where Jesus says, the ego will ask many questions this course does not answer. For example, how did the impossible occur? And by the impossible what he's talking about is the idea that we could be separate from our source, that we could be separate from god and have all these experiences of individuality

And by the way the course says, as long as you believe that you are a body you believe that you are deprived. You know because you don't have all of it. And the only thing that is full and whole and complete is all of it, which is what you really are anyway in this perfect oneness with god. And he's talking about those kinds of questions and then he says something very interesting. He says, there is no answer. Only in experience. Seek only this and do not let theology delay you. And what he's saying there is that the real answer to all of our difficult questions in life is going to come to us not in the form of words but in the form of an experience. An experience of what we really are and where we really are, and that is the real answer to life, that is the real answer to all of our questions. It's also the great mystical experience that people have described throughout history where you actually get to experience what it would be like to be one with your source, to be one with god. That's the answer, and that's why salvation is undoing because by undoing the ego it eventually leads to that experience of that perfect oneness which is your reality and that's the way out. It's not the only way out but it's certainly a fast way out because it accelerates this process of undoing.

You know how Nike says just do it, well I had a student once he brought in a tee shirt that said, just undo it. And that's really what the course says.

William Gladstone:.  Well talk about undo it. I would think that in your workshops the most challenging students would be those that are coming from traditional religions who have in many ways been programmed to do the opposite of undo it.

Gary Renard:.  Yeah I've been lucky so far because most of the people who come to hear me speak are people who have read my books or they're students of A Course in Miracles or they're pretty open to the new spirituality. I think it's very interesting that in a recent public opinion poll something like 85% of the people who were polled described themselves as being spiritual rather than religious And some of those people may even go to church. But they still describe themselves as being spiritual rather than religious. But the same token something like 85% of people who are Christians said that they believe that their churches do not really represent the teachings of Jesus. So I think we have to remember that people kinda recognize something in Jesus that they don't see in their religion because the Christian religion was based on the theology of the apostle Paul and people who followed him, and it's not really based on the teachings of Jesus anyway. And that's why I'm grateful for A Course in Miracles because you can get a purer version and a consistent version that really is based on love and forgiveness that is totally uncompromising and I think almost anybody would agree about Jesus, Christians or not, that he was completely uncompromising because after all you see him forgiving people even when they were killing him. So it's kind of like he understood that it had to be done in all circumstances and all events.

And if he could do that certainly we could learn to forgive the person that cuts us off on the highway or we don't get the job that we want or we don't get the girl that we want or I think that there's somebody who is selling more books than me or something like that, we can always forgive the things that come up in front of our face. And yes once in a while something terrible is gonna happen and that's gonna be very difficult to forgive. I'm not saying that people are gonna forgive it easily. Real forgiveness is not easy. In fact it sucks because they don't deserve it. But the truth is if you do it enough and practice enough on the every day things then eventually you get proficient at it enough where you start to realize, oh wait a minute everything is the same because none of it's true, it's all a part of the same projection. So there's not really any difference between this little thing that I'm forgiving over here and this huge thing that I'm supposed to forgive over here. And that's where you get to the experience where A Course in Miracles starts right off by saying when it says, there is no order of difficulty in miracles. And in A Course in Miracles forgiveness is the miracle, and I think the reason that Jesus called the course the Course in Miracles was because he wanted to change the definition of what a miracle is. A miracle is actually something that takes place at the level of cause in the mind rather than out there on the screen that we call the world which is just an effect. So it really is universal.

But the irony there is if you change the mind, if you change what's in the projector, then what's out there on the screen would have to change also. Which is why my teacher talked about peace a little while ago, they said the people of the world will never live in peace until the people of the world have inner peace. And once they do that's when the lion lies down with the lamb, that's when you have peace in the world is when people have inner peace. That's why the buddhists have the right idea. You know that's why they're dealing, a lot of them anyway, with the cause and not the effect, although there has been a tendency in Buddhism to kinda like make it about your behavior and about the world lately, that's not the way it started out. Zen Buddhism is a lot more like the original. But you can't blame people, you see people doing that with A Course in Miracles too.

The first thing that they'll do, even though the course is saying this is a course in cause and not the effect, the first thing they do is make it about the effect and about the world and they apply these teachings in the world and they'll make a religion about it and A Course in Miracles is not a religion. It's not something that you have to believe in. What it is is a self study course. You know it's something that is done between you and the holy spirit or you and Jesus or you and god or you and the Dao or whatever you want to call it, as long as you recognize that whatever that source is, it's perfect and it's eternal and it's unchangeable, doesn't shift or change, because it's not evolving it's something that is already perfect.

And a parallel there is that you don't have to evolve either. In fact you don't have to try to be perfect, you already are. You know what you really are is already perfect. All you have to do is undo the part of you that is having this experience that it is not perfect and is separate. If you do that then the real you will be all that's left which leads to salvation and then your mind would have to go home to this perfect source automatically. It's like a law of the mind. If you do this you couldn't screw it up if you tried. I know because I've tried and it's like it has to work, it's like these real laws of the mind, I love the way they're articulated in A Course in Miracles. I don't think that a human being could have written A Course in Miracles, I really don't. I think the reason for that is because of something that Einstein said. You know Einstein said that you will never find the solution to a problem on the same level of thinking that made the problem. It's like the answer has got to come from completely outside of the system. And I believe that A Course in Miracles in that answer comes from completely outside the system of time and space. And something that leads beyond that, is the course says beyond the body, beyond the sun and stars, past everything you see and yet somehow familiar. You know that's where heaven is.

And the knowledge of that, the Nostics call it nosis, the experience of that, which nosis is an experience not an intellectual thing as some people incorrectly believe. And they look at A Course in Miracles and see how long and impressive it looks and how intellectual it looks and biblical. They think that it's an intellectual thing when the truth is at the end of the day it's really a very experiential thing and it's also simple. But you know it was originally given to these intellectuals in New York City, and if you give them something simple they won't listen. It's like you gotta give them something impressive. Yet within that framework the course says that it's simple, and it doesn't just say it once it actually says the word simple 158 times. And that's because it represents a choice that needs to be made between two complete and mutually exclusive thought systems. You're either thinking with the ego or you're thinking with the holy spirit. And one leads to staying here, which is you know that may not seem like a terrible thing to you especially if you have a place like this. The only problem with that is when you come back for your next lifetime, and I'm not wishing this for anybody but I'm just saying how do you know that you're not gonna be born starving to death in Africa.

So I bring up the fact that this represents duality. Everything. You've got the beautiful, yes, but you also have the ugly. You have the abundance but you also have the scarcity. That's based on opposites and the thing to do is to get back to a place where there's no such thing as opposites, where there's no such thing as death or scarcity. Where there's only life, where there's only abundance. If you can do that then  you can be there on a permanent basis and you can also have a different experience of being in this world. There would be no scarcity while you appear to be here. The course says that a sense of separation from god is the only lack. You really need correct. If you corrected that one lack then all the rest would take care of themselves because you would never feel lack, and it wouldn't matter whether you had money or not.

You know my parents felt very guilty because they didn't have any money. They were poor, they didn't have any money, they felt very guilty about that. I've met billionaires here in California who feel very guilty because they have so much money. You know it's like you can't win. As long as you have unconscious guilt in your mind then you will find something to feel guilty about. You know that's just the way that it works. The thing to do is remove the unconscious guilt from your mind and understand that it doesn't matter if you're rich or poor because neither one is true. And yeah if you do become very abundant, and there are ways that you can do that, well go ahead. I mean there's no sense in giving up the world because that just makes it real in your mind too if you think that you have to resist it and give it up. So why not enjoy it, why not have a good time? When I go to the movies, I know it's not real but that doesn't stop me from enjoying it.

William Gladstone:.  Tell me something, do you get many students who have also studied the Kaballah? Because I do notice some of the fundamental truth that you're talking about of everything being one is at the heart of the Kaballah. Also it's a very intellectualized difficult path that is the opposite of the simple, but I'd be interested to know if you get many students of the Kaballah coming to your course.

Gary Renard:.  I do get some. I don't get a lot of them because a lot of people who are devoted to the Kaballah are just really into the Kaballah just like a lot of people who are into A Course in Miracles are like really into A Course in Miracles but I do get some. And I do see the parallels. And I've heard a lot of interesting people lately talk about the Kaballah like Madonna people like that. And I think what will happen eventually, even though they're not directly reality, is that A Course in Miracles will become for Christianity what the Kaballah has come for Judaism. It's for the people who are more mystically inclined. Not everybody is mystically-inclined. A lot of people it's just meat and potatoes and this is my car and stay away from it, and it's like there are people who are more mystical who are drawn to things like A Course in Miracles and the Kaballah. You see it everything.

In Hinduism there are a lot of people who are really into the world. Even though they're taught that the world is an illusion they just end up getting sucked into the screen, into the effect. Yet in Hinduism you have the Vidanta, which is a purely non-dualistic teaching, which teaches that the seemingly two things that you have, god and everything else, only god is real so that's a non-dualistic philosophy like A Course in Miracles. In Buddhism you have Zen Buddhism. I think that any major religion has its mystical wing. Even the Catholic church, for example, has very mystical people in it, they're very tolerant of mystics. The only thing you gotta do is say that you believe in Jesus and that he was god's only son and that he died on your sins and rose on the third day and if you just say that once, hell they'll let you do anything. You can start your own wing, you can have all these followers, you can do anything. I could start my own wing of the Catholic church if I just said those few lines because that's the apostle's creed and that's what you gotta believe in.

But if you don't believe in that and if you can't say that well there are still things available to you. But I've noticed in Catholic history people like St. Francis, they were pretty cool. You know they were really great mystics. And I think that you'll always have that. No one thing is for everybody, but there is one experience that's for everybody. That's why the course says that a universal theology is impossible but a universal experience is not only possible but necessary.

William Gladstone:.  It's very interesting that you bring that up because in reading Eckard's books he basically is saying the same thing. He says that within all the religions you will have a mystical branch, and at this point in time I think he's in complete agreement with you in that he feels that the bureaucratic religious part is not serving spirituality but the true spiritual experience is common to all of the major religions and is the point where we can all connect. And I think it's exactly as you've described it, it's the experience of being one that basically resolves all of these otherwise unresolvable ego-level analytically uncompromisable differences. I mean if you looked at, even within the Muslims you've got two branches of the Muslims, they can't agree. You've got branches of the Catholics who can't agree, let alone agree among themselves. But the true mystical experience as I've read at least, in almost every religion there has been a true mystic or the creator the charismatic leader of the religion. And when you actually study the experience which created the religions, experiences are almost identical.

Gary Renard:.  Yes and that's the experience that the course is directed toward, and we'll all have that experience eventually. We're all going to the same place. Nobody is special. Jesus doesn't present himself as being special in A Course in Miracles, he doesn't claim to be god's only begotten son or anything like that, and that's why all spiritual paths are valid. You know they all lead to god in the end and even if you weren't a mystic, like I wasn't a mystic when I was in my 20s, and I look back on the things that I believed and even when I did start to take on a spiritual path I would look at things that I believed 20 years ago, I wouldn't necessarily believe those things today. But I have to admit that it was absolutely necessary for me to believe things then or else I wouldn't be here.

You know it's like we're being guided by the holy spirit one step of the time along the way, and eventually we all end up at the same place. Now the truth is always consistent, the truth doesn't change, but the ego is very complicated. And the ego is based on the idea of separation which is why whenever you have ever had a religion or any kind of an organization or company for that matter, probably in the first or second generation you have some kind of a split and they go in some different direction. I was reading a story in the Wall Street Journal about this group of Jungians who own this mansion in Manhattan, and one segment of these followers of Jung were suing the other segment of the followers of Jung for control of the mansion. And one side was saying, well the other side has been taken over by their shadows, and things like this. It's kind of like, that always happens.

William Gladstone:.  At least they're using good Jungian terminology.

Gary Renard:.  Oh poor Jung. At the end of his life, you know Carl Jung was looking at all these people who had taken on his work and kind of added their own things to it and their own directions, and he looked at them and he said, thank god I am Jung and not a Jungian, thank god I'm me and not them. Because it's like the original is always the closest.

William Gladstone:.  Okay bringing our conversation back to 2012, other than taking Course in Miracles and practicing forgiveness, are there any specific suggestions  you might have for individuals who are concerned about the coming time and what 2012, not just from the Mayan point of view but apparently from many civilizations and traditions seems to symbolize as the point of transformation?

Gary Renard:.  Sure I would say that they need to remember that 2012, and the Hopi indians kind of support this idea, 2012 you know it's in a rock that they did a carving in, and when you get to 2012 what it is, it's a trail that goes off in two different directions. And what that means is that yes it can be very good or it can be very bad but that's true of everybody in their life. And what we're doing right now as a human race is we are determining what kind of a path we're going to go off at that turning point. And the best thing that anybody can do to help themselves or the human race is to practice the kind of forgiveness that I've been talking about. The reason for that is because if enough people in the world do that it's going to make for a much better kind of an experience and a much better future.

Course in Miracles teaches that it's possible for us as human beings and also as the human race as a whole to actually change dimensions of time. You know it's kind of like at that turning point in 2012 where we go off in different directions that script has already been written, it's already been determined. The question is which one are you gonna watch? It's kind of like renting a DVD. Sometimes it'll have like an alternate ending. You know you can watch from an alternate ending, so instead of watching the happy ending you can watch the sad ending or whatever And it's not uncommon for people who make movies to make a couple of different endings and then test it with audiences and see which one people want to see.

And that's actually what we're determining right now, which part of the DVD are we gonna watch?  You know it's all over because as Einstein said, past present and future all occur simultaneously. The future is already there. But what we can do about it is that by changing the way that we think we can actually change dimensions of time and determine which part of the script we're gonna watch. So it's kinda like we're watching a movie right now and you've got the holy spirit on one side of you and the ego on another side of you, and the question is who's interpretation of that movie are you gonna listen to? Cause you can put 20 people in a movie theatre and you got 20 different movies going on, cause everybody's gonna see it their own way, everybody sees this from their own point of view. And just like we all see everything from our own particular point of view. And if enough of us choose the holy spirit, and I think that that is the case, I think that there is a greater awakening going on in the world than most people realize. You don't hear about it much on the news because what the news media wants to do because they think it sells is they will tell you the 20 worst things in the world that day. You know if it bleeds it leads and whatever terrible thing happened in the world that's what they're gonna tell you about.

The least they could do is tell you the 10 worst things that happened in the world and also tell you the 10 best things that happened in the world, at least it would be balanced and it would be more in harmony with the duality that we see in the world. But they might give you one feel good story in the half an hour.

William Gladstone:.  It's really interesting you mention this because the whole point of planetchange.tv and planetchange2012.com, is to report exactly what is missing from the major media. Report on the positive and the solutions. Because everyone is inundated and bombarded with the negative constantly, and you are so inundated with it that you forget that 99% of everything that happens on this planet is good. No one reports, the Smiths went to the park today and had a wonderful picnic and everybody smiled and had a good time. Not news worthy. But multiply that by 6 and a half billion people having those experiences and the reality is the world is actually a very positive place.

Gary Renard:.  Absolutely and the media shapes the way that people think in many ways. So if they're hearing all these terrible things all day then they're not gonna think happy thoughts, and that in turn becomes contagious and it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy. If you can shut off the TV and do a workbook lesson of A Course in Miracles it's gonna make a difference, and it's gonna make a big difference, if you can meditate for however long you want to instead of being on the computer and reading all the bad headlines on Yahoo News or whatever. It's like you're gonna think differently and that's gonna determine not only what happens with you eventually but it's gonna determine how you feel about yourself. So it's also about a better quality of life and eventually leads to a higher life form much like a caterpillar becoming a butterfly. What happens is you kinda like go from this experience of being this separate being up to the experience of being spirit. And it really is better to be a butterfly than a caterpillar, it really is better to be a spirit than to be a body, and yeah you can enjoy the body at the same time.

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